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I don't like when people discuss religion because all it does start arguments. Everyone has different opinions and beliefs and we need to respect each other. We're not going to change each other's minds so there's no reason to argue about it. 

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11 minutes ago, iamtheblood said:

 

thats my bad oni. i admit i have anger issues which i fear can be the d**th of me.

"in the end what it comes down to is do you believe in God or not"

I just wasted my time watching that entire video, for that conclusion?

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@Onision I agree. It went further than it should have.

I will refrain in the future from debating religion with the other members. I realize that it's pointless. 

I never meant any animosity or negative feelings. I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I mean that sincerely.

 

Edited by Terminated
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5 minutes ago, iamtheblood said:

conclusion is that if he does exist he is beyond our comprehension since he is omnipotent or all knowing. so trying to figure if he is real or not is pointless because we cant understand

yeah sorry bud i came to the same conclusion love your face

They should have titled that video “Failed Theories on God’s Existence” - Because all the theories were a waste of time. 
 

We exist, that is what we know. How it is we came to be us still pretty unknown. In other words, people who act confident about some definitive conclusion are terrifying.

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7 minutes ago, iamtheblood said:

lol yeah i definitely dont have it all figured out i dont think anyone can. Anyway who would want to spoil the ending of such a great story.

I’m kinda stuck thinking about all the people born with SIDS, disease etc and find myself thinking it’s not a great story.

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I'll admit. I was overstepping my boundaries. I was being incentive to those who are religious or somewhat religious.

I'm 100 percent out on religious debating from here on out on Onision's forum. 

Everyone is welcome to practice whatever religion they want. Believe in whatever deity they want whether that includes God, Vishnu, Allah, or Baal. 

To the moderators and everyone else. You have my sincerest apologies. I will refrain from making further anti religious remarks. 

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22 minutes ago, iamtheblood said:

Yeah that's true but thats not the end of their story bud. 

You just said that, in response to me, pointing out that millions of people, babies, have passed away from horrible diseases at birth.

You just definitively said that's not the end of their story... based on what? You just stated a belief as if it was fact, and that is tox*c to those who value the difference between opinions and fact.

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10 minutes ago, iamtheblood said:

in fact even if you didn't believe in an afterlife. im native American. their bodies would become the earth and the would be living all around us.

everyone has their own beliefs on the subject 🧐

someone can say som*thing not meaning to be tox*c and yet it is usually based on interpretation. having hope 

Trying to put a positive spin on babies no longer existing isn't a good look.

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  • Elites

I have a lot of theories and corporate religions are mostly t*****e when you get down to the nitty gritty. I believe simply that there is good and bad forces but we all have free will to choose what dominates our heart. I believe in the yin and yang symbol, there is good and bad and bad in good and good could come out of bad. With one without the other how would you truly know what is what.

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On 6/28/2021 at 8:36 PM, Leaf_ said:

I have a lot of theories and corporate religions are mostly t*****e when you get down to the nitty gritty. I believe simply that there is good and bad forces but we all have free will to choose what dominates our heart. I believe in the yin and yang symbol, there is good and bad and bad in good and good could come out of bad. With one without the other how would you truly know what is what.

You think we have free will? What part of randomized brain chemistry and variable living conditions from birth is part of free will?

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1 hour ago, Onision said:

You think we have free will? What part of randomized brain chemistry and variable living conditions from birth is part of free will?

Sam Harris makes a good argument. 

Quote

Take a moment to think about the context in which your next decision will occur: You did not pick your parents or the time and place of your birth. You didn't choose your gender or most of your life experiences. You had no control whatsoever over your genome or the development of your brain. And now your brain is making choices on the basis of preferences and beliefs that have been hammered into it over a lifetime — by your genes, your physical development since the moment you were conceived, and the interactions you have had with other people, events, and ideas. Where is the freedom in this? - Sam Harris

 

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All I can say is has anyone ever looked up the phrase ***y Jesus on TikTok? I swear I have and found a potato and of a cheesy chad Jesus musical number. 😛

Just try to listen to the song Rock me ***y Jesus by The Ralph Sall Experience and try to hold a straight face. Lol It might just be a potential cure for depression. Haha 😂 😂 😂 

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  • Elites
8 hours ago, Onision said:

You think we have free will? What part of randomized brain chemistry and variable living conditions from birth is part of free will?

I like having discussions and hearing others thoughts so I’ll reply to this.
Yes we are plopped into this reality with a seemingly preconditioned living standard and that plays a big part in who we become but at a certain point ((for the average person)) you take your own life into your hands as much as possible.
As for randomized brain chemistry that can be difficult but your brain thinks your thoughts but who controls your brain, (for the average person) we do to a certain point. As someone who didn’t have a great upbringing, did it affect my life up to this point? Of course. Did I suffer from depression bc of it, yes. Did I choose to stay in that dark place with odds against me nope. Am I happy now how the way things played out bc it made me who I am today? You bet.
Do I think there is a ruler choosing my thoughts, actions or outcomes for me no. In a way we are own “god” bc what we perceive and the choices we made determined our reality. We create our own world that we live within this world. Outside forces can try to push you one way but how badly do you say no I’m going this way. So yes unless you are a vegetable free will is a thing, at least in my reality. Lol at my rant

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On 6/29/2021 at 12:42 AM, Onision said:

"in the end what it comes down to is do you believe in God or not"

I just wasted my time watching that entire video, for that conclusion?

Well, believing there is som*thing untouchable , omnipresent , that controls everything an it is for sure "humanoid" just shows our desperate need for reassurance of our existence. Lack of objective. BS

There is a logic answer but not everyone likes it.

At the end of the day, it's your life, how you spend it, who you like, who you don't.

I feel that the "god issue thing" is an example of how we see our lives. How we think? Our will.

As someone that has talk a lot , a lot with people with hardcore christian religious beliefs, I've realized som*thing. It is not if that god exists or not, it is about giving you a reason to sleep well, giving that c***d that "becomes orphan" an empty feeling of hope for someone that cannot process death correctly. Those grannys that have nothing else left but their faith. 

Other people, bad people, use the "faith thing" for taking advantage, there are no "good believer left" . In fact if we start discussing about what is good or bad, who is a "better person" you'd find som*thing. We all have faults , there would be the same number of "good non believers" than "good believers" none. 

We are imperfect, impure, mortal, corrupt, weak. More or less.  And that "seeking for perfection, for an eternal happiness" from my point of view, just makes us loose our time getting lost in empty toughs . Some people need it. Faith. 

Sometimes I feel like I need it. But we should change the direction, it is not about having faith in someone that, does not exist , is about having faith in all of us as society.

The day we all realize about that ,it would be a better day. But it does not seem like happening soon. I just see a lot of people having a really hard time nowadays and it makes me sad because most of them don't want a harsh truth, just an easy going lie.

Guys, one thing is for sure, if you are reading this, you are, alive. 

If there is a god above, and all I ever learnt from love was suffering, then I want a nice long chat, and I'd love to entertain it while singing hallelujah. 

 

We should accept our loneliness as a "one fully made human being" and then realize we are all surrounded by other lonely kittens. 

It's easier proving it does not exist than finding a reason for it to exist.

I am thinking.

If I have in a library a book stand with over 200 books. And the combination of those books order is above 2^9 and it makes me spend a lot of energy figuring out how many possibilities I have to put them in each order. You are telling me, that each one of us with the different combinations that exist in our life time to experience. Just one human being can life multiple lifes changing a few actions. You are telling me that that close to infinite combinatory number,  that tends to achieve infinite even faster if we take accountability of the amount of humans that are currently in the world , that just could not be process by one of the most powerful computers is in fact attainable ,because is god who made it?

I am still waiting for an answer

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On 7/8/2021 at 4:52 PM, Admin said:

You think we have free will? What part of randomized brain chemistry and variable living conditions from birth is part of free will?

I have an irrefutable test that proves, or has you prove to yourself, that you do indeed have a free will.

All you have to do is begin your reply to this post with, let's say, an "I".

Even if you refuse, you show you have a free will choice that you chose to do, or not.

Irrefutable.

Regards

DL 

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1 hour ago, Gnostic Christian said:

I have an irrefutable test that proves, or has you prove to yourself, that you do indeed have a free will.

All you have to do is begin your reply to this post with, let's say, an "I".

Even if you refuse, you show you have a free will choice that you chose to do, or not.

Irrefutable.

Regards

DL 

Influences, such as emotions, take away free will.

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I personally don't believe in God, any religion, or even free will to an extent. I think the general understanding of freewill is sometimes just scratching the surface. I identify myself much more as a determinist. But I think that's a conversation for a whole other forum topic

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11 hours ago, Gnostic Christian said:

I have an irrefutable test that proves, or has you prove to yourself, that you do indeed have a free will.

All you have to do is begin your reply to this post with, let's say, an "I".

Even if you refuse, you show you have a free will choice that you chose to do, or not.

Irrefutable.

Regards

DL 

I think free will does exist but is not as free as we like to believe. So it is therefor very limited & that is not "true" free will. The choices we make are influenced by the experiences, emotions, and moral outlook that we have had in life up to that point and the way we feel.

You saying irrefutable is b'ulls***t though. Here why and here's an example. Lets entertain the idea that I want to m**der my neighbor. But if I do. I go to p*****n. There would be a lot of witnesses & I have no experience in evading forensic evidence. My girlfriend would definitely leave me the moment she found out. My k'ids would go to a relative or into the foster system upon my arrest & I would get a life sentence. It's called cause and effect. So no. There is no free will due to consequences and because of something called "THE LAW" that tells you what you can and cannot do. 

Morality, rules, & or religion defeat the purpose of free will period. 

Edited by Mr.Dawn
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If there is something like a God or Gods human beings are way too limited to understand it.

Religions as we know them today are mostly made up stories by people who lived during times in which the vast majority were illiterate. Not to insult those people, they did the best with what they had at the time. The ancient Egyptians for example build the great pyramid, which was a huge achievement. But they also believed in Gods that had animal heads.

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9 hours ago, Mr.Dawn said:

Morality, rules, & or religion defeat the purpose of free will period. 

Basically free will is what you would decide to do without any influences or consequences.

Consequences change what we choose to do... influences change what we choose to do... so long as there are puppet strings, there is no free will.

We are all puppets.

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Unpopular opinion. I think prayers all go to the same place no matter what religion. 
 

like if there is a god I doubt they care what flavor of worship you choose. 
 

and statically most likely there isn’t a god anyway. 
 

so it’s pointless to debate anyway

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10 hours ago, Ghostie said:

Unpopular opinion. I think prayers all go to the same place no matter what religion. 

lol all a prayer is, is someone talking to themselves. 

10 hours ago, Ghostie said:

Like if there is a god I doubt they care what flavor of worship you choose. 

All deities are fictional to me until someone has objective and demonstrative evidence to prove the existence of one. There's no hard evidence present to point to the existence of one or more. 

10 hours ago, Ghostie said:

and statically most likely there isn’t a god anyway.

Me and several Atheists on AR has concluded that they don't exist. Not unless a Christian or someone of another religion can prove with objective, demonstrative, and direct evidence. If they can't do that then they have a very weak & invalid argument. 

Edited by Mr.Dawn
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On 11/14/2021 at 11:09 PM, Admin said:

Influences, such as emotions, take away free will.

They, emotions, do not negate free will.

They direct the will to do what the emotion and mind want.

If you have an argument for your point, let's have it, --- instead of just a statement that is wrong.

Regards

DL

On 11/15/2021 at 8:41 AM, stevenenjoysmilk said:

I personally don't believe in God, any religion, or even free will to an extent. I think the general understanding of freewill is sometimes just scratching the surface. I identify myself much more as a determinist. But I think that's a conversation for a whole other forum topic

If you do not have control of your will, who does?

Who will decide to answer this post or not, if not you?

We have a free will that is only limited by nature and physics.

Do I need to show you the proof with my little test?

Take it.

Regards

DL

 

On 11/15/2021 at 4:59 PM, Danny Van Hecke said:

If there is something like a God or Gods human beings are way too limited to understand it.

Religions as we know them today are mostly made up stories by people who lived during times in which the vast majority were illiterate. Not to insult those people, they did the best with what they had at the time. The ancient Egyptians for example build the great pyramid, which was a huge achievement. But they also believed in Gods that had animal heads.

That is mostly untrue FMPOV.

Compared to todays garbage thinking, the ancients had us beat hands down.

I hope you can see how intelligent the ancients were as compared to the mental efforts that modern preachers and theists are using with the literal reading of myths.

 

https://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

 

Further.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html

 

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of j**ish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

 

Please listen as to what is said about the literal reading of myths.

 

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

 

Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

 

This is how early Gnostic Christians view the transition from reading myths properly to destructive literal reading and idol worship.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02ciandvg&feature=BFa&list=PLCBF574D

 

Regards

DL

 

On 11/16/2021 at 2:55 AM, Ghostie said:

Unpopular opinion. I think prayers all go to the same place no matter what religion. 
 

like if there is a god I doubt they care what flavor of worship you choose. 
 

and statically most likely there isn’t a god anyway. 
 

so it’s pointless to debate anyway

Only if your morals are as vile as Christian ones.

Insert gays and women harmed by h*mophobic and misogynous religions to this quote. You should get an idea of what you should be doing with the h*mophobic and misogynous mainstream religions if you live by the golden rule.

Please get back to me with your conclusion.

Martin Niemöller
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the j**s, and I did not speak out—because I was not a j**.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Regards
DL

 

On 11/15/2021 at 4:59 PM, Danny Van Hecke said:

If there is something like a God or Gods human beings are way too limited to understand it.

Speak for your own lack of thinking ability my friend. We are not collectively as limited as you think.

I understand our need for gods and religions. 

What is it that you do not understand?

Do you recognize your tribal nature and how if pushes you into a tribe/religion?

Regards

DL

 

On 11/15/2021 at 9:05 AM, Mr.Dawn said:

I think free will does exist but is not as free as we like to believe. So it is therefor very limited & that is not "true" free will. The choices we make are influenced by the experiences, emotions, and moral outlook that we have had in life up to that point and the way we feel.

You saying irrefutable is b'ulls***t though. Here why and here's an example. Lets entertain the idea that I want to m**der my neighbor. But if I do. I go to p*****n. There would be a lot of witnesses & I have no experience in evading forensic evidence. My girlfriend would definitely leave me the moment she found out. My k'ids would go to a relative or into the foster system upon my arrest & I would get a life sentence. It's called cause and effect. So no. There is no free will due to consequences and because of something called "THE LAW" that tells you what you can and cannot do. 

Morality, rules, & or religion defeat the purpose of free will period. 

Consequences, positive or negative, are always the result of our exercising our free will.

To say that those consequences negate free will is stupid.

KISS.

Take my test, and proof that you have a free will to give away, and then we can chat.

If you cannot accept a proof of concept that you yourself provide by your own actions, you are not thinking well.

Regards

DL

On 11/15/2021 at 8:41 AM, stevenenjoysmilk said:

I personally don't believe in God, any religion, or even free will to an extent. I think the general understanding of freewill is sometimes just scratching the surface. I identify myself much more as a determinist. But I think that's a conversation for a whole other forum topic

Determinism is always in play, for sure, but making a poor move in a game will always return a negative return and a good move a positive return.

Just because you will d*e if you jump off a cliff, does not mean you do not have the free will and capability to do it.

Regards

DL

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1 hour ago, Gnostic Christian said:

Take my test, and proof that you have a free will to give away, and then we can chat.

1 hour ago, Gnostic Christian said:

Do I need to show you the proof with my little test?

No. Because you're not a licensed psychologist and your argument goes against facts. Perhaps it is you who has your thinking wrong as you are referring to the philosophical and religious based "free will". 

 Sigmund Freud performed advanced studies on Free Will. 

Quote

Sigmund Freud claimed to show that people’s behavior is often guided and shaped by unconscious processes and forces, so that what they consciously think they are doing might be mistaken. For example, Freud suggested that a man who criticizes, condemns, and a**acks h*mose*uals might consciously believe that h*mose*uality is bad, but underneath he may have an unconscious attraction to h*mose*uality, and so he defends himself against his own h*mose*ual feelings (which he cannot accept) by insisting that h*mose*uality is evil.

http://psychology.iresearchnet.com/social-psychology/decision-making/free-will/

Quote

More generally, recent research has shown that many nonconscious processes affect behavior strongly. Mostly these do not have a strong resemblance to the kind of unconscious dynamics that Freud wrote about. Instead of a dungeon into which socially unacceptable thoughts are banished, the new theories depict the unconscious as more like the support staff of an important executive, performing many helpful activities behind the scenes. Research has shown that people are affected by many stimuli that they never realize consciously (such as subliminal advertising—flashing an image so fast that one does not consciously see it but unconsciously registers and responds to it). In one famous study, research subjects had to solve word puzzles in which they unscrambled sets of words to make short sentences. By random assignment, some of the participants solved sentences that invoked the idea of being old, such as the words retirement, sunshine, and Florida. When the participants left the experiment, the researchers secretly timed how fast they walked to the elevators. The participants who had been “primed” with the idea of being old walked more slowly than other participants. Such causes do not indicate any free will. The conscious decision about how fast to walk did not involve any deliberate decision to walk slowly, but their behavior was affected by these nonconscious processes.

There is "empirical evidence" or scientific evidence supporting that free will is an illusionary nature. 

Article: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnhum.2016.00262/full

Quote

so any claim that an agent has ‘the ability to do otherwise’ is ambiguous or indeterminate unless the sense of ability appealed to is spelled out. A satisfactory account of the freedom to do otherwise owes us both an account of the kind of ability in terms of which the freedom to do otherwise is analyzed, and an argument for why this kind of ability (as opposed to some other species) is the one constitutive of the freedom to do otherwise. As we will see, philosophers sometimes leave this second debt unpaid.

Quote

The most radical a priori argument is that free will is not merely contingently absent but is impossible. In recent decades, this argument is most associated with Galen Strawson (1986, ch. 2; 1994, 2002). Strawson associates free will with being ‘ultimately morally responsible’ for one’s actions. He argues that, because how one acts is a result of, or explained by, “how one is, mentally speaking” (MM), for one to be responsible for that choice one must be responsible for MM. To be responsible for MM, one must have chosen to be MM itself—and that not blindly, but deliberately, in accordance with some reasons r1r1. But for that choice to be a responsible one, one must have chosen to be such as to be moved by r1r1, requiring some further reasons r2r2 for such a choice. And so on, ad infinitum. Free choice requires an impossible infinite regress of choices to be the way one is in making choices.

There have been numerous replies to Strawson’s argument. Mele (1995, 221ff.) argues that Strawson misconstrues the locus of freedom and responsibility. Freedom is principally a feature of our actions, and only derivatively of our characters from which such actions spring. The task of the theorist is to show how one is in rational, reflective control of the choices one makes, consistent with there being no freedom-negating conditions. While this seems right, when considering those theories that make one’s free control to reside directly in the causal efficacy of one’s reasons (such as compatibilist reasons-responsive accounts or event-causal libertarianism), it is not beside the point to reflect on how one came to be that way in the first place and to worry that such reflection should lead one to conclude that true responsibility (and hence freedom) is undermined, since a complete distal source of any action may be found external to the agent. Clarke (2003, 170–76) argues that an effective reply may be made by indeterminists, and, in particular, by nondeterministic agent-causal theorists. Such theorists contend that (i) aspects of ‘how one is, mentally speaking’, fully explain an agent’s choice without causally determining it and (ii) the agent himself causes the choice that is made (so that the agent’s antecedent state, while grounding an explanation of the action, is not the complete causal source of it). Since the agent’s exercise of this power is causally undetermined, it is not true that there is a sufficient ‘ultimate’ source of it external to the agent. Finally, Mele (2006, 129–34, and 2017, 212–16) and O’Connor (2005, 2009b) suggest that freedom and moral responsibility come in degrees and grow over time, reflecting the fact that ‘how one is, mentally speaking’ is increasingly shaped by one’s own past choices. Furthermore, some choices for a given individual may reflect more freedom and responsibility than others, which may be the kernel of truth behind Strawson’s sweeping argument. (For discussion of the ways that nature, nurture, and contingent circumstances shape our behavior and raise deep issues concerning the extent of our freedom and responsibility, see Levy 2011 and Russell 2017, chs. 10–12.)

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/freewill/

As for the Christian argument that their deity gave them "free will" think again.

Quote

If infallible divine foreknowledge is true, then our acts are the (logical) consequences of God’s beliefs in the remote past. (Since God cannot get things wrong, his believing that something will be so entails that it will be so.) But it is not up to us what beliefs God had before we were born, and neither is it up to us that God’s beliefs are necessarily true. Therefore, the consequences of these things (including our present acts) are not up to us.

Short answer. No, I don't agree with your argument. You had what 3 posts to get it right. So continuing with that same argument isn't getting you anywhere. 

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