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Do Men And Women Have Equal With Parenthood Rights?


Onision

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There is som*thing really frustrating to me about American culture, and it probably spans throughout the world where it is socially acceptable to end your own unborn offspring without justification. We regularly, in our culture, preach equality between genders yet we simultaneously constantly act like women are incapable and should not be held accountable for any wrong that they do.

On TikTok recently there was a woman who clearly broke the law against a man who was not conscious, and yet last I checked, she was not in legal trouble... even though what she did to the man was literally filmed/undeniable. Why? Why do we have so many double standards? We act like fem-activism is a critical component of society but completely and utterly let women do whatever they want without consequence on a constant basis, things that if a man did, there would be no forgiveness.

A great example of this is legally requiring men to pay for offspring they do not want (which frankly, I think if you have offspring, you should feed/clothe them, common sense but bare with me) yet if a woman does not want her offspring, all she has to do is walk into a clinic and have them ended, never having to pay support for the offspring if the man would want to keep them, because the man had no choice in the matter. Let's break it down into an equation...

Man does not want baby + women wants baby = baby is born.

Woman does not want baby + man wants baby = baby is ended.

Man does not want baby = Deadbeat dad, judged by society for the rest of his life.

Woman does not want baby = Poor innocent person, a hero, should be defended to no end and if you question her, now you are the bad guy.

Are you kidding me?

Here's another hard truth. Men, rarely say they dislike men yet women, CONSTANTLY say they dislike women - you ever wonder why?

If someone who knows a group of people better than anyone, being part of that group, winds up hating that group? You may wanna ask a few questions, like why does the person who knows this group better than anyone dislike them so much?

Fact of the matter is, many women see other women seeking sympathy for things that are absolutely ridiculous. Women will intentionally do horrible things, like end a pregnancy they not only asked for, but could easily follow through with, literally just because they don't want to disrupt their social life... are you kidding me? Are you joking? Seriously?

You may think I don't know what I'm talking about, but I in fact know multiple women who ended their pregnancies due to social inconvenience... did I say multiple women? Implying some did not? No, I meant every woman I've ever met who has ever ended a pregnancy.

Not a single woman I've ever met has actually ended their unborn offspring because they were subjected to a crime or medically needed it. Yet when a woman wants a baby and the man doesn't? Well, he's a bad person, let's spread the word about how bad this guy is, despite our blatant double standard.

I do know one woman who got pregnant as a result of the law being broken, she was sleeping and he broke the law, he got her pregnant when she was not even conscious and you know what that woman did? She still had the offspring! The ONE person I knew who ending a pregnancy would actually make sense, had their offspring.

You explain to me why THAT woman is not called a hero? You explain to my why THAT woman gets ZERO credit but the women who end their unborn offspring without justification, get all the celebration. Why? For being literally the worst would-be moms ever?

Let me tell you about another woman, my sister. Had at least 2 optionally bailed pregnancies. The first one I offered to raise her offspring, I just begged her not to end her unborn offspring's life, and you know what she did? She said "Nah" and went ahead and ended her unborn offspring anyway. Then she got pregnant again, same story, ended them again.

She finally had a baby, the third pregnancy (to the best of my knowledge) and then I begged her not to disfigure the offspring upon being born (force removing of a piece of their manhood) as they were a boy and our society is insane. My sister promised me she would not harm the offspring. But guess what? I baby sat one day, changed his diaper and you know what I saw? A boy who had been harmed, deeply harmed, permanently disfigured. So not only did my sister end two of her unborn needlessly (she was financially sound, was in the military so she would have had paid leave to take care of her babies, still ended them anyway) but now she couldn't help but disfigure the baby she did have.

And why? You take the rights away from babies you consensually introduced to this world, and then you take the rights away from your babies again by disfiguring their bodies, take a look: https://www.doctorsopposingcirc*mcision.org/for-parents/reasons-to-keep-your-son-whole/

Long story short, women need to be held accountable. Rights between parents should be equal. If you want to have a baby and the father does not, have the baby, but he shouldn't have to legally be required to be in the life of a offspring he did not want if you can just the same end your pregnancy when you don't want a offspring. It's common sense. And if you want to end a pregnancy? Don't call yourself a hero, don't act like you did som*thing good and don't get mad when people point out what you did because guess what? Everyone should be held accountable for their actions.

It's simple, heroes save lives, the don't end them. If a father is bad for not wanting a baby, then a mom is too. If a mother can bail on being a parent, then so should a father.

Stop living a lie, stop acting like women can do no wrong. My mother hurt me when I was young, sprayed me with a fire extinguisher to gas me out of my room, slapped me in the face, unleashed a belt on me repeatedly, constantly lied to me and is now a addict. You call that a hero? You call that a person who is superior to all men? My father is not a good person, I don't think my mom is a good person, not with how much they both lie and clearly think about only themselves and their own needs over others, especially those they are programmed to love unconditionally but somehow overcame that inherent need to protect/prioritize your own.

I just gotta say, in this story, there is only one hero, and that is the woman who had every reason to end her pregnancy, but didn't. Why? Because that baby did nothing wrong, it's not their fault they were conceived and the mother knew she would love the baby anyway, regardless of how they were conceived. She had a baby girl, and they're out there right now, alive and well, thanks to the one woman in this story who actually deserves credit, but got none.

Wake up, our culture is just wrong. We celebrate the wrong people, we call people who are the opposite of brave or responsible the heroes and the real heroes are ignored. It needs to stop, and we need to finally be honest about what it means to be a person who ends life without justification, just because we want to go on drinking and being irresponsible in bed. Grow a conscience, if you ended a pregnancy merely because it was inconvenient to you? Guess what, parenthood is a series of inconveniences, we get spit on, we get screamed at, we get poo'd on, we get hit and we sacrificed ourselves for our offspring while getting no long term appreciation for it, and you know why we take all that from our offspring and don't ask for anything back? Because we actually love our offspring, parenthood is sacrifice, parenthood is putting someone else before yourself, and what do you do? You just end them before they're even born, because the only thing that matters to you, is you.

I'm not against women having a choice because I know there are hundreds of reasons to end a pregnancy, like health issues or the legal system being involved, but me being for women having a choice doesn't mean I think you should treat the clinic like a revolving door as I have seen people do.

I had a pregnancy scare when I was only 14, you know what I did? I told the person I was with, I will be the father of this offspring, because I'd rather be a dad who is 14 than someone who has no compassion for their own unborn young people.

If a 14 year old Onision can step up and be a parent, what was my employed/insured 20+ year old sister's excuse? And even then, as the baby's uncle, I said I'd raise them, my sister still ended them.

I wonder what my nephew will think when he grows up and realizes, if his mom listened to his uncle, he'd have two more siblings, but instead? They're ghosts.

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Well. You're not equating the same things. If a woman has an offspring and the man doesn't want it, he has to pay offspring support. However, if a woman has an offspring and doesn't want it, SHE also has to pay ch*ld support. Like. My mom literally pays ch*ld support to my dad for my younger siblings. Lol. Not sure how people think a clump of cells that can't exist on its own= a human being. There's a reason why late term ********s aren't allowed- because by then, it is viable and can be called a baby. An embryo is not a human. Is j*rking off also wrong bc s*men are alive and may eventually be a baby? 

As for women saying they dislike men, the opposite isn't the same because men have historically been in a position of power over women, and woman have been oppressed by men since literally the beginning of time. Hades, men used to OWN women. Sure, women have more rights now, but we still very much live in a patriarchy. I don't think anyone thinks all women are heroes, but to ignore the power dynamics between the se*es that have permeated our culture since it was initiated is to turn a blind eye to the truth. 

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8 minutes ago, Sierra said:

If a woman has an offspring and the man doesn't want it, he has to pay offspring support. However, if a woman has an offspring and doesn't want it, SHE also has to pay ch*ld support.

Yet every single time, if a woman doesn't want them before a certain term in the pregnancy, she can bail, yet he can't. So you're wrong. Women have more rights.

9 minutes ago, Sierra said:

Not sure how people think a clump of cells that can't exist on its own= a human being.

If you do nothing, that clump of cells turns into a human being. So essentially, it is a human being, time is the only remaining factor. Making your wrong again.

9 minutes ago, Sierra said:

Is j*rking off also wrong bc s*men are alive and may eventually be a baby? 

Again, your comparison is really bad. If a man does nothing, then the fluids inside him are reabsorbed into the body. If a woman does nothing, a baby is born. You are wrong for a third time.

11 minutes ago, Sierra said:

woman have been oppressed by men since literally the beginning of time. Hades, men used to OWN women.

You just ignored one of the most important aspects of American history, when women used to own slaves, you know, often men. Making you wrong for a fourth time.

 

12 minutes ago, Sierra said:

I don't think anyone thinks all women are heroes, but to ignore the power dynamics between the se*es that have permeated our culture since it was initiated is to turn a blind eye to the truth. 

A woman comes forward about allegedly being subjected to something that was not lawful at the hands of a man, everyone freaks out. A man comes forward, the same respect is not given. The Johnny Depp case is a wonderful example, or for instance, RealStreamNews who had a woman accuse him of something really bad, ruin his life, and then later admitted she lied.

Women are not at a disadvantage, they are at an advantage on multiple fronts.

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7 minutes ago, Onision said:

Yet every single time, if a woman doesn't want them before a certain term in the pregnancy, she can bail, yet he can't. So you're wrong. Women have more rights.

If you do nothing, that clump of cells turns into a human being. So essentially, it is a human being, time is the only remaining factor. Making your wrong again.

Again, your comparison is really bad. If a man does nothing, then the fluids inside him are reabsorbed into the body. If a woman does nothing, a baby is born. You are wrong for a third time.

You just ignored one of the most important aspects of American history, when women used to own slaves, you know, often men. Making you wrong for a fourth time.

 

A woman comes forward about allegedly being subjected to something that was not lawful at the hands of a man, everyone freaks out. A man comes forward, the same respect is not given. The Johnny Depp case is a wonderful example, or for instance, RealStreamNews who had a woman accuse him of something really bad, ruin his life, and then later admitted she lied.

Women are not at a disadvantage, they are at an advantage on multiple fronts.

Why would men have more rights over womens bodies than women themselves?

 

Time CAN make a baby but ***********s happen all the time. So it's not a sure thing.

Women owning slaves doesnt negate the fact women basically had no rights at all until less than 100 years ago. Women owned both men and women slaves, so that's not a gender issue and is irrelevant to this discussion. Men still dominate in positions of power, as they always have.

https://leftronic.com/blog/ceo-statistics/

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2 minutes ago, Sierra said:

Why would men have more rights over womens bodies than women themselves?

(1) You're wrong for implying I ever said they should. (2) You're wrong for trying to avoid the actual argument, which was that if a woman can give up her rights/obligations to a baby before they are even born, so should a man. No mention of rights over her body were mentioned as such a concept is irrelevant and irrational.

3 minutes ago, Sierra said:

Time CAN make a baby but ***********s happen all the time. So it's not a sure thing.

Once again, wrong again, you're dodging the point that was made and stating something that is irrelevant. The argument was that if you leave a man's seed alone, it doesn't turn into a baby on it's own, yet if you leave an fertilized egg alone, it turns into a baby. That is the clearly difference and is obviously why you didn't address the point head on, and instead diverted to referencing the issue itself as if it was somehow a justification for your argument, yet, your argument is still, dodging the point because you apparently have no actual counter argument.

It's like if I said "You should not end lives when those lives will continue to exist if you do nothing" and you replied with "Well people end lives so it's not a sure thing those lives will happen because people end them" - The response is absurd, making you incorrect yet again.

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Men still dominate in positions of power, as they always have.

I'm kind of confused... who is the vice president again? Women are all over the place when it comes to positions of power. That obvious fact aside, I'm not sure what this has to do with the incredible disproportion in women's rights vs men's rights when it comes to parenting.

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2 minutes ago, Onision said:

(1) You're wrong for implying I ever said they should. (2) You're wrong for trying to avoid the actual argument, which was that if a woman can give up her rights/obligations to a baby before they are even born, so should a man. No mention of rights over her body were mentioned as such a concept is irrelevant and irrational.

Once again, wrong again, you're dodging the point that was made and stating something that is irrelevant. The argument was that if you leave a man's seed alone, it doesn't turn into a baby on it's own, yet if you leave an fertilized egg alone, it turns into a baby. That is the clearly difference and is obviously why you didn't address the point head on, and instead diverted to referencing the issue itself as if it was somehow a justification for your argument, yet, your argument is still, dodging the point because you apparently have no actual counter argument.

It's like if I said "You should not end lives when those lives will continue to exist if you do nothing" and you replied with "Well people end lives so it's not a sure thing those lives will happen because people end them" - The response is absurd, making you incorrect yet again.

I'm kind of confused... who is the vice president again? Women are all over the place when it comes to positions of power. That obvious fact aside, I'm not sure what this has to do with the incredible disproportion in women's rights vs men's rights when it comes to parenting.

Well you did imply that, and I'm not wrong, because if a woman is carrying an embryo, that is a women's rights issue, because you are essentially trying to control what a woman does with her body. Like I said, when a baby is actually a baby and is viable, the woman does not have a right to an ********. So at the point when the fetus becomes a baby, she cannot give up rights to it. Just like the man.

The sperm argument is relevant because just like an embryo, sperm is both alive and not a human.

The last thing was not in regards to parenting, but in regards to women showing disdain for men. Yes, we have a woman vice president. We also have a black vice president. Does this mean that ****** doesn't exist anymore? Of course not. Similarly, it also does not mean that patriarcharcal standards are not still in place. Hopefully that clears up your confusion. The CEO article was just one example of the disproportionate power statistics when it comes to men and women. If you do any research on patriarchy at all, you will see that women do not yet have an equal footing, and never have had an equal footing.

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3 minutes ago, Sierra said:

Well you did imply that, and I'm not wrong, because if a woman is carrying an embryo, that is a women's rights issue, because you are essentially trying to control what a woman does with her body. Like I said, when a baby is actually a baby and is viable, the woman does not have a right to an ********. So at the point when the fetus becomes a baby, she cannot give up rights to it. Just like the man.

The sperm argument is relevant because just like an embryo, sperm is both alive and not a human.

The last thing was not in regards to parenting, but in regards to women showing disdain for men. Yes, we have a woman vice president. We also have a black vice president. Does this mean that ****** doesn't exist anymore? Of course not. Similarly, it also does not mean that patriarcharcal standards are not still in place. Hopefully that clears up your confusion. The CEO article was just one example of the disproportionate power statistics when it comes to men and women. If you do any research on patriarchy at all, you will see that women do not yet have an equal footing, and never have had an equal footing.

You ignored what I said, and continued your own narrative. You gotta know when there is no point in arguing because the other person can only hear what they themselves say, and not what the other person is saying.

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💯

I don't agree with women ending their pregnancies in this sense. Personally, I don't want to be a parent and never have but if I ended up pregnant, I would keep the baby. I couldn't bring myself to end it's life and I don't see how other women can do that just because they don't want one. I know someone who did that too and I don't understand it.

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54 minutes ago, Onision said:

You ignored what I said, and continued your own narrative. You gotta know when there is no point in arguing because the other person can only hear what they themselves say, and not what the other person is saying.

...what did I ignore? I tried to address every point.

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Honestly lowkey agree, I think women benefit from a lot of...societal privileges that men don't get, one of those being less critical judgement on these kind of issues. Others being lesser punishments for things like se.x.ual assau.lt on mi.nors/students and avoiding the draft. It's appalling in some cases, but I think comes from the fact that it was only in recent history that women have gotten out from under the thumb of men (in our society anyway, there are and have been matriarchal societies out there) but I agree that men should be able to sign away rights to their young people that exclude them from having financial responsibility so long as women have the right to choose to end their pregnancies. I personally do not agree with ending pregnancies, excluding very specific circumstances, but if women have the right to choose then so do men 🤷‍♀️

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If people really want to be equal, you gotta take a look at everything that is making you unequal, that means looking at both sides on every issue, not just one - otherwise, stuff can go the wrong way, and fast.

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Well, the fact of the matter is that men do not carry the burden of pregnancies (except for trans men in some cases). So we are by nature not the same. Just as I don't think a white person has the authority to comment on POC issues, I don't think men should have the authority to comment on women's issues. 

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Trans guy here so some thoughts?

So I think that this is a complicated topic with a lot of variables to consider.

We’re tossing up a lot of different views but I feel from what I read Onision believes men should have a say in a women’s pregnancy.Which is valid. The end all choice? No.

******** is labeled a women’s issue because it has greater affects on her rather than the man involved but in no way is it solely a women’s issue.

But this got toxic real quick.

The whole time **** with a women with fertilized egg=Baby vs Men jacking off=no baby is literally semantics and stupid.

Body autonomy vs morals is tricky.

In the same way his sister decided to circumcise without the babys consent(because...baby not legal adult) Is definitely rooted in religious bull**** and cultural norms as is ********. It’s honestly gross that people manipulate other peoples bodies without their consent and all should be banned. You can literally get circumcised when you’re older and can make that choice yourself. Kinda like when people pierce their baby’s ears like... just why?


It’s not cool for a man to ask a women to get an ******** but it is also not cool for a women to have a baby and receive c***d support from a father that does not want to be involved.

If she chooses to have a baby without a partner to help raise the k*d then that’s her choice but don’t make the father accountable for something he never agreed to. Let’s just stop shaming people?

The choice is for the women to make because it’s her body carrying said baby.

so the shaming of fathers not wanting to be fathers is also comparable to the shaming of women wanting to get ********s. You’re not meeting the roles that society set up for each gender and you get publicly shamed just in different ways.

As of now it’s more acceptable for women and men to shame “absent” fathers for being “deadbeat dads” than it is for men and women to shame women for having ********s because having a c***d is a long term commitment vs an ********. Once you have an ******** the women usually feels the most long term affects psychologically and physically but after a few months or years the people around her forget. But on the other hand you cannot forget a living c***d so you’ll see more coverage on “deadbeat dads” in the public eye because it’s consistent.

I’m literally a pacifist and do not even believe in the d**th penalty one bit but I support ******** rights and the fact that it’s solely up to the women no matter what circumstance.

The man is upset that the women had an ******** because he wanted to be a father? Sorry but he’s not having a fertilized egg inside of him is he? So sucks to suck.

Everyone should just have their own rights at least to their bodies. Which is the bare minimum.

Stepping the line of whose choice to make with their own body with the laws is a slippery slope, and as a trans guy myself I at least have some experience with fighting similar ****. 
 

Men can just literally physically leave when a women is pregnant. A women has to make a choice to t********e or not because she cannot because it is... inside HER body. Not his.

That is why it boils down to her choice over his. 
 

....idk just my thoughts tho

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I feel the pain in your words, I am going to share my prespective as a female from this topic.

Unborn offsprings has always been a "delicate topic to discuss" now it is time to get into a conclusion.

First of all, nowdays society has been raised in capitalism, which means , since we are borned, we praise expending money, being selfies, only caring about today. We´ve lost ourselfs in the comfy world , we believe we are gods, when the least expected day you might d*e.

I used to be from the team of, "it is my body, it is my choice" but, being honest, ayy and mostly seeing all the cute faces that I see troughout the day(my mother is a preescolar teacher , and sometimes I help her, also I´ve been maths and physic teacher for a loong time) I guarantee you , you´ve touched my feelings. When you are a biological normal human being, you get the instinc. As a female, it feels like your ovaries are explouting.  You have the need of having a c***d.

The thing is nowadays we are getting trick, by the industry, by our sourroundings, as an spanish popular saying "nos han dado gato por liebre", even even by our ownselfs. Society is p********d and has became poisonous.

Truth hurts, I´ve known people  from sport clubs, gyms that were not up to being mature and settle down, telling me that I did not even know if I was gonna even be fertile. Playing games on you to join their game. 

Guys, with my heart on my hand, and all the pain in my chest, fall in love, and when you really really find love(it has to go both ways)  then you will want a c***d. Or lots of them. But this is not how things work.

And those girls who had an ******** without any excuse, should not be having *** like it is a hobbie.

*** with strangers is risky, it is pointless.

I suggest them to learn to please theirselfs more often so they would think objectively before acting. If you are 100% sure you don´t like someone then why are we just hipocrytes.

I´ve made mistakes, fourtanetly I don´t have to deal with that feeling of taking away a life, because that is horrible. 

Well, don´t worry Onision, they might not get bothered at all because they are having more fun doing c*****e and thinking that life is just trash and wishing everyone else with a different point of view the worst, and one day killing themselfs.

 

On the other hand,  women nowdays in society, as a kick set up point I will sat that it is all about money. The more females we have working, expending much much more than before, the better.

So we do not mind if they get privileges, because they spend. And we earn money.

As an industrial engeenier I will add, in the army industry, is the same thing. Why are we still buildimg submarines ? Because our rusian friends want them. Why do we use the "we are mostly fixing expensives yatch" ? A half truth half lie, we want war, I want you all to need me designing the most powerfull weapons, I want to raise my ego, I want to force my intellect.

I have nothing else to do.

Why do we want all those women to feel preasure to fit in? The amount of money we will earn. The less commun sense they have , the better.

In conclusion, as the good father advice, you and I will never get: do not let that bull**** it, surround yourself by good people, and learn, don´t stop being humble, look up for you, get married, do all those things, I don´t mind if you don´t earn a million dolars a day, I care about you being happy, independent and with your descendent.

I feel bad for the amount of things  that you have had to deal since you were younger, but I guess that made you how you are!!

 

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******** is never something to be praised for I agree, but the right of autonomy with one's body is extremely important. 

In the current world we live in, a lot of households cannot function without two household incomes (both parents working), as everything is just getting a lot more expensive. In our early 20s most of us are starting careers or still in University. Accidents do happen unfortunately, people get pregnant on birth control, using ******s etc. and a lot of women aren't in the position to raise a c***d, some can't look after themselves, and I've SEEN what happens when people who aren't fit to have a c***d have them, they become neglected, depressed and mentally ill later on, I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

However, it shouldn't be something to be praised, or demeaned, it should just be something that happens that sucks. Men do have the short end of the stick when it comes to custody of their k***s, and there are many double standards between the genders. How come when a person is 'brain d**d' in a coma we can end their life by pulling the plug but a foetus with barely a heart beat and not even conscious, is not allowed to be t********d? You could argue that there is the potential there for the life to develop in a foetus, but a brain d**d person will never be able to live a 'life' of their own again. 

If I became pregnant right now, an ******** would be honestly traumatising, I'm still unsure of whether I would keep it, as it would mean giving up on my degree, going into debt, potentially getting me and my boyfriend kicked out of our homes, the stigma of being young parents (although thats the least of my worries), I'll probably resent my partner later on and the k*d wouldn't have a mum and dad living together etc.

It is a huge responsibility that a lot of people are not ready for, but I think you are especially brave for deciding to keep the c***d and raise it, this world nowadays makes it difficult to put k***s before careers, in conclusion we're all just slaves  😖 I'll probably end up adopting when I'm older too

TL;DR: Tried to make balanced argument, I'm pro choice but recognise the struggles men go through when it comes to wanting a c***d/custody

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  • Elites

In my profession I see pregnancy used as a means to control women and keep them in trafficking and ab**e situations. I've also seen ****, incest, and pregnancy resultant from c***d marriage. I've also seen circ*mstances where the fetus is so damaged from drug/alcohol use and/or malnourishment due to homelessness and marginalization that ******** is the humane choice. 

This is why pro choice is vital. There are also ofcourse medical considerations and complications.  

I also agree that the creation of human life should be taken seriously and men should have a voice. I watched my brother be devastated when his girlfriend chose a later term ********. He wanted that c***d and offered to raise it fully and pay for it.Those type of scenarios would be heart breaking for the man. I've also seen men be lied to about women being on reliable birth control. 

This topic is heavily nuanced and unfortunately laws are not always great at covering nuance. 

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  • Elites

I see this being a huge issue everywhere. Honestly, this needs to be resolved, as men do have their rights. So I agree with you. 

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